Sin City
SIN CITY comes out on DVD this Tuesday, Buy it...It's the best comic adaptation ever.
I saw it in the theatre....With Dominic. He liked it as well. No matter what he may say here.
Frank Miller, in my mind, is this the best comics writer we have.
And he cut his teeth on Marvel characters which is why Dominic thinks he's not.
He thinks it's Alan Moore.
Another reason.....probably because Frank Miller has Batman routinely kick Superman's ass.
I have thoughts on this as well. But I'll give Dominic first chance to opine on that topic. Since his love affair with Superman began as soon as he landed here on earth.
Dominic, not Superman.
I saw it in the theatre....With Dominic. He liked it as well. No matter what he may say here.
Frank Miller, in my mind, is this the best comics writer we have.
And he cut his teeth on Marvel characters which is why Dominic thinks he's not.
He thinks it's Alan Moore.
Another reason.....probably because Frank Miller has Batman routinely kick Superman's ass.
I have thoughts on this as well. But I'll give Dominic first chance to opine on that topic. Since his love affair with Superman began as soon as he landed here on earth.
Dominic, not Superman.
posted by Bill at 10:13 PM
14 Comments:
Bill is correct, I did enjoy Sin City and I do think Alan Moore is a better writer than Frank Miller. Has anything Moore ever written sucked as much as Miller's DK2? Miller's done a lot of good work, no doubt, but you can't tell me DK2 was good. "The best comics writer we have" just wouldn't churn out crap like that. It's the sort of half-baked effort one would expect from oh... Howard Chaykin. (And before anyone even considers getting upset about that statement, go read HC's Challenger's of the Unknown)
I liked the original Dark Knight Returns, but it just doesn't compare with Moore's Watchmen when it comes to Best Comic Ever. Hell, it doesn't even beat The Killing Joke for Best Batman Story Ever.
'Killing Joke' is pretty crappy. It's not the worst Batman story of all time...That would probably be something Max Allan Collins. Killing Joke was nice to look at. But that's about all. The final scene where Batamn laughs at a joke from the Joker is just stupid. Batman shouldn't see anything funny about the Joker. Because there isn't anything funny about him.
Batman: Year One is the best Batman story, then Dark Knight...Killing Joke is a distant 899th.
I never said Miller was a perfect writer. He has a couple of turds to his credit. DK2 and Ronin.
I don't know what the hell he was thinking about DK2? But he was tring to break new ground with Ronin. And he did somewhat...without that book we wouldn't have gotten Dark Knight and Sin City.
But before he did that he re-invented Daredevil.
Miller has several great runs to his credit...His first Daredevil run...Daredevil: Born Again...Batman: Year One...Dark Knight...and Sin City.
By my count Moore has one...Watchmen. Some lunatics would count Swamp Thing...I don't. But even I did...He would still lose 5 to 2.
Bill, you ignorant slut- I forgot that you prefer the no fun Batman, so of course you like Dark Knight and Year One better than the Killing Joke. The Killing Joke is brilliant because of the insight it gives us into the Joker’s character. Apart from the death of his parents, the thing that defines Batman the most is the villains he fights and none more so than the Joker. Of course the Batman can laugh at the Joker. He has to because he knows that if things had gone a little differently, he might have become the Joker. And remember, the root of all comedy is pain, so there is plenty that’s funny about the Joker.
As for Frank Miller, how can you say that he’s our greatest writer when in his heart he hates superheroes? Why do you think he took DD out of his costume? Why do you think he dumps on Superman so much?
What else has Alan Moore done that’s good besides Watchmen? How about the best damn Superman story ever written? How about From Hell and Tom Strong? And not only lunatics count Swamp Thing? The way he redefined the character without negating what had come before was frelling genius. Anatomy Lesson was one of the best stories ever. EVER! I’m not the world’s foremost authority on Moore, but I’d venture to guess that he’s never written anything as bad as DK2. to be really great you’ve got to have some level of consistency.
P.S. Miller can’t draw hands.
BEST COMIC ADAPTATION EVER-
Just to get back to the original topic of Sin City. Everyone knows the best comic adaptation ever is Masters of the Universe. It's a wonderful adaptation of Jack Kirby's Fourth World comics. OK, you do have to change all the character's names in your head, but still...
OK, you little Moore-ite.
First of all, if you look, you'll notice I didn't not use the word 'story'. I used the word 'run'.
I did this because I knew you would pull that Superman story out of your ass. I almost mentioned it. But I knew you would. You are such a pawn.
Anyway..."For The Man Who Has Everything." (Superman Vol. 1 # 11 for those of you scoring at home) is a damn fine Superman story. Maybe the best. A close second would be "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" Also written by Alan Moore.
But you are right about one thing, my troll like friend. You are not the formost authority on Alna Moore. Because if you were, you would know about 'Bad Girls'. That's a piece of crap that Moore never even finished. It's about the adult versions of female icons of literature...like Alice and Dorothy...you know...little girls grown up to be whores, I guess. Who knows? Check Ebay...you owe it to yourself (and this conversation).
The art is terrible too. By Melinda Gebbe, I believe. Avoid her at all costs. In fact, if you know someone named Melinda, distance yourself from her as well.
I prefer the serious Batman, as you well know. I do not prefer the Batman that scares children when he shows to save them. Nor do I care for the Batman that whips out a credit card to pay for a date with Poison Ivy.
Being Batman is serious business. But serious business does not translate to being an asshole. Which the current Batman is.
Back to the topic at hand. Is Miller a better comic writer than Moore? Yes he is. And here's why.
Miller works within the medium. Sure he pushes the boundaries as an artist...but he stays within them in.
He isn't trying to invent the wheel, but as a semi-wise man once said, 'there's plenty of good tread on the wheel we have.'
Alan Moore may be too smart (or too weird) for his own good. The end of his Swamp Thing run was awful...barely understandable. More intellectual masterbation than anything than anything else.
As for Tom Strong. Fun, not great. League of Extraordinary Gentlemen? Please. Any comic that needs just as many pages at the end to explain the ages you just read (and could barely understand) is no use to anybody.
Anybody can understand a Miller comic (except for DK2, but I already conceded that point).
Alan Moore did write the greatest story...but he is not the best writer.
If you put his body of work next to Miller's, they do no compare.
If you actually read some of Miller's work besides his DC stuff, you'd see that.
But since you probably won't, you can just take my word for it.
You're wrong.
I can't believe you're arguing that Miller is better because he stays within the boundries. What is he now- John Byrne?
No salient points.
How droll.
My point is that coloring inside the lines isn't exactly a selling point. Breaking the boundries and expiramenting with the medium is.
Hey, maybe the best writer we have is someone other than the two big Ms. I'll have to think about it. But it sure as hell isn't Miller.
And I still think writing the best comic book ever (Watchmen) is worth more points than taking Dare Devil's costume away or taking a dump on Superman. Seriously, he really does hate superheroes. I believe he's said so himself.
Miller never took DD's costume away.
S-T-O-R-Y.
Maybe you've heard of it.
Oh, wait you read the Superman books every month.
You probably don't know what a story is.
As for one brilliant story...
Not enough for this competition, I'm afraid.
Execution. Execution. Execution.
Until you have read all the works of those involved, you cannot make a point that will stand.
What nonsense. I don't have to read everything ever written by Miller and Moore to make a point. You haven't done that either. Moore's written a lot of stuff in England that niether of us have read.
I'm not quite sure what the point you're trying to make about "story" is. You just seem to be saying "story." Again, writing the best one ever ought to be worth some points.
And my final point is this, even if Moore isn't the best writer in comics (which I'm not conceding as yet), no one who would write something as bad as DK2 deserves the title either.
And Miller STILL can't draw hands.
Horse Pucky.
Writing the best story does you get you points. A lot of points. It just doesn't give you all of them.
Just like writing a bad story doesn't take them all away.
Saying stupid things doesn't automatically the stupidest person in the world.
But you're getting there...
When you were counting Moore's good runs did you forget about Marvelman/Miracleman and V for Vendetta?
I reread The Killing Joke last night. Frankly, when I brought it up I had forgotten that Moore wrote it. I was just using it as an example of a Batman story that's better than The Dark Knight Returns.
I found it to be as brilliant as it ever was, not crappy at all. I don't know what you think is so crappy about it. You say Batman laughing at the end is stupid. To say that is to not understand what laughter is. Laughter is a release of tension. By the end the tension has gotten so high that Batman basicly has only one choice in how to release it. Either beat the Joker to death or laugh. One of the premises of the story is Batman doesn't want to kill the Joker (or be killed by him.) But I know you think Batman should never laugh which is ridiculous. If the character is to be anything more than two dimensional he has to laugh. It's something human beings do. Sometimes they even laugh when they shouldn't, when it's inappropriate because they need to releave tension or they are caught by surprise. And besides, it was a funny joke.
The Killing Joke is a wonderful examination of the realtionship between Batman and his greatest enemy and what made them what they are- one very bad day. It also reaferms the idea that Batman is NOT as crazy as the villians he fights. The Killing Joke's Batman is a human being with compassion who laughs. A Batman with no laughter and compassion is called The Punisher. And who wants that?
The Dark Knight Returns is a platform for Miller's personal political views. I dont' have a problem with artists expressing their personal political views, but it doesnt' always make for a great Batman story. For example JLA #83 makes a great political statement, but it's not so great a JLA story because it resorts to the it-was-all-a-dream ending, which is bad story telling in general. (Joe Kelley, however does remain treu to the nature of the characters throught the story, which I don't think Miller does in DKR.)
But you said Batman Year One is the best Batman story ever. Honestly, it's been too long since i read it for me to coment fairly. I can only say that The Killing Joke is better than The Dark Knight Returens.
I'd like to take a moment to reframe this debate, but I'll do that in the next post.
Now, what is it we are debating exactly? Is it meerly who's better, Miller or Moore? Or is it who's the best ever? If that's the case we have to concider folks like Will Eisner or Art Spiegleman.
If were're talking about "greatest" then we have to take into account things other than just writing talent, things like impact, influence, and innovation. In that case we are forced to concider Stan Lee and Jack Kirby.
Bill's original statement was, "Frank Miller, in my mind, is this the best comics writer we have." Does "have" mean "have now" or "have ever had?" Because, really what have Miller or Moore done for me lately? Whose putting out the best work right now? Grant Morrison, Paul Dini, some guy I don't know?
Okay, the only argument here that I can fully support is that Dominic is a Troll.
Sorry Dom - love ya guy, but you're squat. Squat and round and fuzzy. That's a Troll. If you're reading Grimm's at least.
Maybe he's a Hobbit.
Anyway, Zombie-lads the real truth is that this is all apples to oranges. Both of the Extrodinary Gentlmen in question have cranked a a variety of stuff from the grand to the gross.
I love Dark Night Returns and think it's a fantastic Batman story - plus having one of the coolest Ollie moments ever (Hiyo Goddamn Silver!!).
But DK2? Crapfest. Hated it. My wife accidently spilled a glass of water over all 3 issues and just shrugged it off - "That's okay babe - it was crap anyway.
Top Ten is high on my all time fave list and I'm psyched to see there's a new mini coming out. But Tom strong?
It's okay. Not fabu, but okay.
love Watchmen as one of the most complex and layered all time stories. Love Sin City's gripping story and brilliant use of blck and white and the plus one of some other.
so as you might have guessed, (well, you knew already Dom) I'm no Zombie for any company, writer or artist.
Except maybe Rob Liefield. He should be punished. Preferably by someone like Marv.
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